Better at Feeling: Why Regulation Is Not a Solo Sport

Patrick Obolgogiani (00:02)
Alex, warm welcome.

Alex Tsuk (00:06)
Thank you, Patrick.

Patrick Obolgogiani (00:07)
Thank you. Could you take me to the first time you actually breath were breathing on purpose? And where were you in your life at the time and what was happening in those first minutes you were doing that?

Alex Tsuk (00:22)
Well, thank you. I that point I was ten years in a relationship where my partner was feeling very lonely. she really thought I had to deal with my anger issues. I had unresolved problems with my mother who doesn't. And she said if you want to continue in this relationship, you need to go see a therapist. And at that point I had never cried in my life.

Alex Tsuk (00:50)
I had zero interest in reflecting on myself. I was earning money. I was providing for the family. We had two kids. And I thought it was a waste of time to work on myself. So I didn't want to lose the relationship. So I went to see the therapist. She, after three sessions, said she couldn't get anything from me. And it's the therapist who took me to breathwork. my first impression when I arrived there was, my God, it's a bunch of hippies.

Alex Tsuk (01:16)
I don't belong there. I was a businessman, I was running a an online travel agency at the time. I had a team, I was earning good money. And maybe 15 minutes into the process, I was laying down and someone next to me acted out and I could not uncomprehend what was going on. And my brain froze.

Alex Tsuk (01:43)
It took me just one breath when I reconnected to myself to experience something that I would laugh at if you were to tell me that, but some kind of a download, some kind of clarity. And then I cried for an hour and a half. Just that deep breath that just opened my chest. That's all it took for me to crack open. I saw what was wrong in my relationship with my newborn kids. I had two small kids at the time, of course, with my partner, but also why my business was failing. I

Alex Tsuk (02:12)
Cried, cried, cried. I never cried like that at all. And then after I don't know, two hours, I really I said I'm changing everything. And I I really thought if someone like me, who's so rational, so masculine and stuck in his beliefs can have an experience like that, then breath work works. And then I dived into the science of transformation. I explored

Alex Tsuk (02:41)
all plant medicines. I wanted to understand how do you enter into a modified state of consciousness? What's the science behind that? And I yeah, explored for myself different tools. And really breathwork was the one that really took me the the deepest. And now it's 13 years I'm helping people do exactly the same.

Patrick Obolgogiani (03:08)
Yeah, it's a beautiful story. I'm curious like the sounds like that one moment like completely took you a different trajectory. was it already clear that you want to teach other other people or what was your path towards I think now you train like seven thousand people? Can you talk about that path that you have?

Alex Tsuk (03:29)
You know, I don't know why, but somehow I've always responded to life. I don't feel I've made a single decision in my life. I just said yes to things that are coming my way. So, you know, breath came, okay, I started to do breathing. And then one day I got to do an ice bath. And then here we go. I loved it, but it was not a choice of mine to do an ice bath. And then someone had a spare ticket to spend a week with Wim Hof in Poland. So I joined because no one else wanted to join.

Alex Tsuk (03:58)
And then I started to facilitate my friends for free. And then people started liking it. And then they started to tip me. So I I was, you know, teaching like that just for friends. And people were really complimenting me. And at the same time, my my other activities were really struggling. So I started to give it a go and go a bit deeper. And before you know it, I was teaching five days a week, 20 people every time.

Alex Tsuk (04:25)
For a few hours to a full day. And then I had movie stars who came and joined me from Hollywood. And it kept growing for from one day to three days. And then the COVID hit. And at the beginning of COVID, people were kind of stuck, didn't know what to do. So I thought, okay, who wants to learn this? Because we're a bit stuck together. And I started teaching.

Alex Tsuk (04:54)
35 people at a time, online and in person from all over the world, because people were stuck at home. And I started facilitating and people were liking it. And at the beginning, I had 15 experts in breath work. And then every time I was getting feedback, we want less of them and more of you. I didn't even think there was anything for me to teach. I just thought, let's take a free diver, a holotropic breath work, and all of a sudden I had all these experts. And people tend to ask more of me and less of other people.

Alex Tsuk (05:23)
And now I am teaching alone, but it's more by accident, I would say, than because I really initially thought it through. And yeah, that's a little bit how I went about it.

Patrick Obolgogiani (05:37)
Yeah. Let's talk about the method, because like at least from what I've read and heard from other people, including Ben, who obviously was on this podcast previously, it like the method consists of like multiple parts. How would you describe what's the easiest way to understand? What's make this different from, as you mentioned, free diver or someone else teaching a different way to breed?

Alex Tsuk (06:00)
Yeah, for me it's very simple. The least important part in what I do is actually the breath work itself. And I do believe that there's a lot of marketing around breath work and everybody's kind of branding something that is kind of always the same, which is this idea of being with the breath. And so really my my focus is actually on what is happening before the breath itself. So how can I create the highest level of safety for people?

Patrick Obolgogiani (06:06)
Mm.

Alex Tsuk (06:30)
Because we are arriving with our protections, our guards, our armors, thinking, well, I'm not sure I can be fully open and vulnerable with these people. So my obsession is how can I create the highest level of safety? And that's not always easy because we don't know each other. So there is a systematic approach to it. I use humor, I use movement, I use authentic relating, I use fundamentals of

Alex Tsuk (06:58)
You know what makes humans connect with each other. So peep are you science? Because if you trust me and you think I'm a smart guy, you're gonna trust me. This is how we work. We trust the guy who knows, right? So that's why I share my knowledge and I learned. But not so much because I want to impress you, just because I want you to trust me, right? So then the breath itself is an absolute container where you breathe the way you want. So unlike others where they tell you how to breathe.

Alex Tsuk (07:28)
In my space, it's just a place a space to breathe. There are invitations, there is music, there is invitation to move, to make sounds, to breathe higher. So I'm guiding, but in a very in a way that is giving just permission for you to do it or not. I'm not I'm not directing. And it's this agency and this free will that gets people to go exactly where they need to go, but not further. So that's where the safety comes in.

Alex Tsuk (07:58)
I think sometimes in breath work these days, people are going for cathartic release too much, too far. And that's where the the next pillar of my approach is about. It's about integration. I spend a third of the time in every session with integration. And what does it look like? It's rest, it's it's going within, and it's circling, it's connection, whether it's with me, with one another, with a group of people.

Alex Tsuk (08:27)
But that integration is the most important. I want people to leave my trainings, my workshops, my sessions with a sense of being complete, having felt the shift, but also having had the space to integrate it. And that's also something that I feel is not important enough in in certain modalities.

Patrick Obolgogiani (08:47)
Yeah, no, definitely. Maybe since you mentioned kind of trust is key here and and many of us are kind of when s scientific establishment says something that we kind of trust it. I'm curious to hear kind of from that journey you had, you mentioned you went deep into the science of what's actually happening underneath. What were some of the most interesting findings? Like what was surprising to you about what's happening mechanistically in our bodies when we apply these techniques?

Alex Tsuk (09:14)
So I got really lucky again because very early a man came on on my path who happened to be probably one of the most incredible experts in breath work in the world. And you should have him in this podcast. His name is Dr. Mark Cohen, and he's a researcher. he wrote, I think something like 15 PhDs on breathwork. And he got hired for a few years by Wim Hof to tour around the world with him. We're talking 15 years ago. And he prepared Wim for Kilimanjaro.

Alex Tsuk (09:45)
And he's got PhD students writing about all sorts of extreme wellness practices, whether it's hot and cold, being superactive, fasting or feasting, stillness or movement, breath holds or overbreathing. And he really got me to realize that you know, there is always this concept of window, window of tolerance, window of

Alex Tsuk (10:12)
Whatever, but we live within a certain window of expansion. And if you stay within that window, it's your comfort zone. And getting to the extreme of that window is really where change comes. So, can I get you to be the most relaxed you can be? And can I get you to the be quite aroused? And I love that breath work, like ice baths, gets you to.

Alex Tsuk (10:38)
Get your highest activation, so highest level of sympathetic activation. But following that highest level of sympathetic activation comes the deepest relaxation. So, what does it look like? If you take someone and you ask him to meditate for one hour, and you take another person and you ask them to do breath work for one hour, the resting heart rate of the person who did breath work will be lower than the person who did meditation. How cool is that? So somehow.

Alex Tsuk (11:07)
Doing a lot leads to more relaxation than relaxing the whole time. How cool is that? You know, so it it challenges a little bit our relationship with stress. You know, most of us have heard we need to reduce stress. And actually the science is pretty clear. What matters is not to reduce stress, but to change our relationship with stress. And when we practice stress consciously, whether it's with a breath hold that is extended, whether it's with an ice bus.

Alex Tsuk (11:36)
Or a sauna or an extenting fast, you know, those moments where we put ourselves through something that is physically physiologically challenging, it leads to some kind of expansion. And now what's amazing is of course, mind, body, soul are connected. And when you are going through those extremes, you are also getting to explore different parts of you. And that's pretty transformational. And anyone who's done very long fast.

Alex Tsuk (12:05)
Will tell you that it's more profound than any psychedelic experience. You know, and you can have the same with freedivers and people who are really going deep within in through meditation. So somehow there is something about going to the extremes of our physiology that is really getting us to the, you know, opening different channels that somehow we often access only through the use of plant medicines, for instance, or psychedelics in generals. And

Alex Tsuk (12:34)
To know that we can access all those parts completely naturally, completely free, without any side effect, I think it's just fascinating.

Patrick Obolgogiani (12:45)
Yeah, no, definitely. You kind of alluded to I think people around you and I I believe one of the tenets or other pillars here is is the relationships alongside prep and cold and movement and of course the integration and prep. Why do you think like it's difficult to do this alone and what's the role of having groups around you? Is that

Alex Tsuk (13:15)
Yeah. Okay. So I th I always thought you were continuing with your question. So a hundred percent. And I think that's your best question so far. You know, if you look at successful organization, it always comes down to the community. They did a study on multi-gold medalists. What makes a multi gold you win a gold medal, maybe you're lucky, maybe you're but multiple times and actually they had two things in common cold exposure, I kid you not.

Alex Tsuk (13:46)
And community. If you go around the world and you look at blue zones where people live, you know, outlive everyone else, what is the secret? They only have one thing in common is a sense of true community. In the Western world, we have learned this thing that I have to do it alone. And I have to build safety, maybe with my partner, maybe with my kids, and maybe with my parents. And this this really very narrow approach to community.

Alex Tsuk (14:13)
And that's what's really hurting us because somehow you get disappointed by your kids who are leaving you, your girlfriend is cheating on you, and all these things that all of a sudden your whole world collapses. Well, because we are very fragile if we rely just on a few people that somehow we haven't chosen if it's our family, or we you know, shot with all the hormones of love. We feel this is this is the one. So cultivating trust and safety with strangers.

Alex Tsuk (14:43)
Just by being curious and compassionate about them, it's it's incredible. So usually the traditional people will come to me thinking, I'm gonna learn from the teacher, I'm gonna learn from the expert. And at the end, they realize, wow, I've learned more from the strangers in the room than from the teacher. And that's what it's all about. It's about realizing that we are all mirrors from one another. And once you really get curious and you witness people's

Alex Tsuk (15:11)
Being fully authentic, fully vulnerable, and open up, it unlocks and it gives you permission to unlock your wounded parts. And that's amazing. Because if I focus on someone else, you're not gonna feel concerned. You're gonna be very safe. he's talking with that person. And I guide them through a very deep and very painful process. But you think you're not affected because it's someone else. But it's not true. You are being affected. You are in the field, and the next day you're gonna feel, whoa.

Alex Tsuk (15:38)
I didn't sleep too well. Something shifting inside of me. I feel more and then before you know it, the person is ready to access their deepest fear. They start sharing things they have never shared with anyone before. Why? Because they have found safety within themselves, within the container. So I do believe that if we can create that, we have really come back to the origin of the word healing. Healing is return to wholeness.

Alex Tsuk (16:05)
And there is a sense of wholeness in coming and sitting in circle. And this is, my friend, how it's always been done. You know, when you want to have a good time, you know, you go into the stadium and you you sit in circle around people, or you go with your friends and you have a beer with a group of friends, or you, you know, no matter what it is, whether it's a spiritual route with sitting and drinking cacao or cheering.

Alex Tsuk (16:32)
all in circle and sitting on a round table at a wedding, it's always the same, you know, but we've kind of have lost that. So bringing the sacred back into connection is what it comes down to.

Patrick Obolgogiani (16:46)
I mean, I can't help but not think about the way it now works with a lot of the wellness industry, including by the way, obvious, like you know, ultimately the you're like a solo user of the app and there's there's like and I wonder like how to best integrate that into this sense of community, like you're doing this with others and because ultimately being regulated or feeling that you can regulate yourself, it's about for the sake of others, not just for your own sake. It's like for the sake of like being

Patrick Obolgogiani (17:16)
more yourself in front of your three year old kid instead of like getting angry or being like with your work stuff in your mind. I'm just curious to hear like, because I know you also work with with Zoom now a lot with many clients around the world, like how do you best incorporate the sense that you have a community in in technology and and and the wellness industry?

Alex Tsuk (17:36)
Yeah, thank you. I I teach people both self-regulation and co-regulation. And I think to be educated on both is very important. So for instance, when people take an ice bus, I tell them you're not allowed to go out of the ice bus unless you've asked for support. Okay. And that's that's the is the shift for them. So it's not so much about staying long time or having

Alex Tsuk (18:06)
No, you can go out anytime you want, but I want to see you being open and vulnerable and asking for support. And that's something we've lost. So I love measuring and having data just so that people get to realize how dysregulated they are. So heart rate variability being one of them. I work with HeartMass Institute and you know the different devices that they offer. And I teach how to improve your heart rate variability. So you get the agency, you get

Alex Tsuk (18:34)
To become this James Bond who knows in every scene who to kill and who to kiss, right? And it's good to measure your that. And you know, I use Muse to measure brainwaves, like an EEG monitor. So combining heart rate variability and EEG monitoring gets people to have awareness. okay, this is how regulated I am or not. And then matching it with their breath rate and having an awareness, like, okay, when my breath rate is hard.

Alex Tsuk (19:02)
is higher, it's harder to regulate. And if I can control my breath, I can control my state. So just this biofeedback that you get by those tools is amazing. But you know, as I I shared with you, you ultimately you want people to not use your soft your your your software or your app and that's the goal, you know. It's like Tinder. The goal of Tinder is that you can delete the app, right? If they do a good enough job, then you don't need Tinder. And that's the goal, right?

Alex Tsuk (19:31)
And that's you're you're similar. This is you know, eventually I don't use any device anymore. I use zero I don't measure how long I'm in the ice bath, I don't measure the temperature, I don't measure my breath hold, nothing. I don't measure anything because I want to be present moment and connected and and and for me it's a distraction. But for seven years I measured everything. So it it I needed this.

Alex Tsuk (19:56)
You know, it's just the way we've been raised. We like to control, we like to measure, we need to see improvement, we like to get the reward. All these things are fantastic. And when you are with others, we get to, yeah, just keep each other accountable and measure each other. And if it's done in a not judgmental way, then you know everybody gets to benefit from it.

Patrick Obolgogiani (20:19)
Yeah. No, it's and I can you go deeper into the co-regulation? I I've heard the word being used in different contexts, but what what does it actually mean in practice and how could someone like incorporate that into their the way they live day to day? Yeah.

Alex Tsuk (20:36)
So again, we've been conditioned to believe that we cannot rely on anyone, that feeling safe is not is difficult, we don't trust. Why? Because we we we don't trust our own parents. And we've learned that somehow they were not loving us unconditionally. That you know, if I had good scores at school or if I behave well, then I am praised and I am loved. But if I misbehave or if I don't have good marks, then I don't receive the same amount of love. So we've been conditioned to, you know, not

Alex Tsuk (21:06)
love unconditionally and do not be loved unconditionally. So it's hard for us to not to trust someone else but ourselves. So we go through the world building these protections, whether it's the manipulator, the liar, the controller, the perfectionist, we just make sure that we are getting the love we want, but we're at the source of that love. We control that. And that's a very lonely place. Right? What we ultimately want is to be in a place where we trust and feel safe again. So

Alex Tsuk (21:35)
We use ways to put people in defrost. So, what does it look like? I can, for instance, tell you how I feel when I'm with you. So, I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about how I feel in connection with you. Huh? So now all of a sudden you're gonna feel, this is how I'm impacting Alex. That might not be nice to hear, right? It's not always positive, but you get a reflection on how you're being perceived and what you bring in the world.

Alex Tsuk (22:02)
And then you get to feel while hearing that this is how I feel. And now we get to have a connection heart to heart and feel, whoa, this is the impact that I'm having on this person, and this is the impact that he's having on me. Right. And if we do that for a few times, I promise you that within a minute, we will feel closer to one another because we will have revealed our experience. And it doesn't matter if you say, I feel attracted to you, or I feel scared with you, or I feel some tension in my body. It's just the truth of the experience of the person.

Alex Tsuk (22:32)
And this radical openness creates trust, right? Is okay, all right. That's that's I can work with that. Eye gazing is super hard, right? Because what happens when you eye gaze with someone, unless you are from this hippie community, I'm in. Usually when you eye gaze, either you kiss or you punch, right? This is just it's just not okay to eye gaze because we see each other's soul, we go really deep. But if you know that it's really one of

Alex Tsuk (22:59)
It's usually more intimate to look someone in the eyes than kiss them, right? So that's that says something about the power of eye gazing, right? So imagine using that to co-regulate. If someone is in an ice bus and they start having a panic attack, they start to hyperventilate. What if I get them to actually look at me? Right? And just do that. They can still hyperventilate, but look at me. And guess what? The moment we do that.

Alex Tsuk (23:28)
We go into alignment. Our hearts are aligning, our breath are aligning. I meet them first. And it's the easiest way to co-regulate. You've heard it before. How do you regulate a kid who's screaming? You give them a hug. You bring them to your heart. You s you're you're you know, you you cannot raise reason with people who are dysregulated. You just need to hold them tight. You have that in love, you have that in with with dear ones. All I need is a hug. It's the power of just that.

Alex Tsuk (23:57)
skin connection, that heart connection that creates an alignment of frequencies. And if you imagine now you have one person dysregulated among a bunch of people who are regulated, the power and how easy it is to have that person regulate. That's again is the power of community. So if instead of having hey I have a problem, I bring a problem and it's a problem of the community. Now all of a sudden I don't feel so alone with my problems. And this is how people

Alex Tsuk (24:27)
Don't die in the blue zones, you know? Because if someone has a heart attack, everybody's gonna take care of it. In Africa, it's not you I have a child. No, we all have a child and we raise that child together. And you heard it, we know it, yet we don't apply it at all.

Patrick Obolgogiani (24:45)
Yeah. Yeah, it's a it is difficult, like, I guess change the environment you're in. Like you're swimming in the water, you don't see the water as a fish, right? So I guess being conscious about that or trying to get more conscious about the water and then seeing if you could change some parts about it. Like find community, as you mentioned, that can kind of you know, be there for you and co regulate together. And I think same with Danneleys and I can speak for as a as a father of a three year old, but at least for me it was a big shift in

Patrick Obolgogiani (25:16)
thinking about like whenever there's like misbehaviour or like this kind of you know behavior that it makes like come on like that kind of feeling is to perceive it as like disconnection from you and from like being safe and then that helps like to re-shape whether it's true or not I actually don't know but like it helps with just being there and then having that unconditional feeling where it's like it's not about like trying to cause shame of like how can you be this way? It's like I'm here, you're safe.

Patrick Obolgogiani (25:46)
and it doesn't always help, but it I think it usually does at least at the end. And as you mentioned, probably long term it can help where it doesn't this feeling of like when I'm like this, then I don't receive that that no one can have support I get from from my parents.

Alex Tsuk (26:01)
And also the the the the problem with children, they show you the unintegrated parts of yourself. So it's the mirroring part that is, you know, as they're gonna grow up, you're gonna see that. And that's gonna be the interesting part. So, you know, every time you'd be in judgment, and you can do the same with your parents, you know, because you are of course doing the same with your parents. So somehow one of your jobs in life, and a unnamed law, is that they expect you to

Alex Tsuk (26:29)
live their unlived life. And that comes with a lot of pressure to be happy, to have a happier relationship, to make money, whatever it is that they didn't do, and they pass it on. And it's hard unless you're really conscious to not do that.

Patrick Obolgogiani (26:46)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. One a little bit of a left term, but I know you know there's many people I've spoken to recently, and I think some probably listening to this that are are either already shipped to becoming a breathback facilitator or thinking of doing it. I think it's when you've had that experience you had where you completely shift your world, then you wanna kind of share that with others. but it's it's not the easy path and and and also like as a someone who's like

Patrick Obolgogiani (27:15)
trying to find some human being to work with, there's as if there's no standards really. So it's like hard to find the right person to to work with. So maybe we could cover kind of both both of these people. Like maybe as someone who's trying to find the right person, how would you guide them to to find the right maybe teacher or coach, whatever you want to call that person to help you kind of uncover yourself up the, you know, teach techniques that what's what's behind them. Any any ideas on on you know how do you find someone you can trust?

Alex Tsuk (27:46)
Mm, thank you. Yeah. I guess trust is something you built, it's not something you declared. You know, we we know that. So spend some time with that person. You know, have access to them. Maybe if they have long masterclasses, you need to feel their heart, you need to feel if there is an alignment, you need to feel what's the connection that you feel if you align with their message.

Alex Tsuk (28:10)
Check in with their students, you know. If they are established, they must have graduates who are already facilitating. So, what is the real outcome of their students? I put all my graduates, they are on my website, so you can see their links and to the work they're doing around the around the world. yeah, I think if you can do a session, have a session. Most facilitators facilitate online these days, so join one of their sessions. we have something called the global

Alex Tsuk (28:40)
practitioner breathwork alliance, which is kind of a serious certification. It took me two years to be certified by them. And that basically says that you you you are an ethical business and and you you do things responsibly. So I would say do that. Don't get fooled by the shiny lights. you're gonna make a lot of money. And like any shiny promises, like run away, you know, like try to meet someone who feels is

Alex Tsuk (29:09)
Is grounded and and and feels actually serious and goes through the curriculum. I always invite people to reach out to me, and Ben is another one. We don't always I select my students. I'm not for everyone. I am not for everyone, and I am okay with that. So when I meet people, I also recommend other facilitators. Some are online, some are in the UK, some in the US, in Canada. So

Alex Tsuk (29:36)
We tend to recommend each other as well, depending on on the style or the, you know, if you are looking for someone very shamanic, that's not me. You know, I'm more the kind of like no bullshit, kind of direct. I will tell you the thing the way they are with me. And that's the other thing. I do not satisfy everybody. You know, I don't care if you paid money, if I don't feel you are creating a safe environment.

Alex Tsuk (30:05)
I don't think you should be doing this work. And I will be able to tell you and I tell you exactly what you need to do. So people who really follow this this program with me, they really will come safely when they will facilitate. And that's what really is all about because this is really profound work and we get people to really be very vulnerable. And it's it comes with a responsibility.

Patrick Obolgogiani (30:28)
Definitely. What about the other side? So someone who's wanting to become or has recently become a facilitator. What are some of the wisdom you want to part on on that person based on everything you've gone through in the last decade or two?

Alex Tsuk (30:43)
Yeah, I mean it's common sense, but know yourself. And I think it's the most important. I tell you why. Because if you know yourself, you can facilitate from the self. And if you're not facilitating so from the self, how do you expect people to really connect to yourself? So if you are, let's say, super controlling, right? And that will feel that it's a part of you that is showing up, or you you will not be able to

Alex Tsuk (31:11)
attuned to respond to what's coming. And attunement can only happen if you're in yourself energy. So it requires deep introspections, work. And there are many tools out there. One of them is one I use, it's around parts work, which you use AI combined with a therapist. So you get to know yourself through a chat with an educated, safe bot, and then combine that with some therapy sessions with a coach who knows what you've been through in the previous sessions.

Alex Tsuk (31:41)
And I love AI and how AI is now combined in in the work of healing. And I so if you reach out to me, guys, I'll I'll I'll send you the link to that. but somehow that I would say that's the number one thing. Go know yourself and do the work and explore the limits of your own psyche because it's hard to take people on the path you haven't been yourself, you know, unless it's really true. It's really true. Once you understand that.

Alex Tsuk (32:09)
Then you can guide people safely through that journey. And if you haven't done it, yeah, you're just guessing.

Patrick Obolgogiani (32:16)
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's the part about like understanding yourself and how you react to situations is there's a few professions where I think it's like really critical. and I think this is probably one of them. And and I think same is true for whenever you're kind of a leader or a manager, like or parent. It's like those things expose yourself in in a different way than than many other things and then you get to learn about yourself.

Alex Tsuk (32:44)
It's the difference between a leader and a facilitator. And I think we are entering a an era where we want facilitators. We're tired of leaders. We distrust them, whether they are running the country. What we're craving is a space where we can express ourselves freely. And that's what I think a facilitator should be. So he's not gonna be the authority. He doesn't need to prove anything. He's gonna be there with some guidelines, holding those guidelines and offering you a mirror without projecting his own biases. So

Alex Tsuk (33:12)
That's what for me is the future of facilitation. I've done many, I happily send the links, many webinars on that, free webinars on on the art of facilitation. And I think it's it's it's important when you select the person you connect with. Maybe you want a younger woman because you feel more attuned to that than to me. That's that's that's fine. But find someone who you can recognize, I think, these qualities in this ability to attune to to others.

Patrick Obolgogiani (33:38)
Yeah, no, definitely. Maybe to make sure we give some tangible tools for someone listening. imagine that you're speaking to that person that was you back in those early days, you know, basically rational, you're like all in on like your business and everything else. If you just want to give that person some like kind of quick way, something to feel that there's there's there's a path here to kind of get them them to

Patrick Obolgogiani (34:08)
feel a difference. What was what would be some of the early things that you would tell them or kind of ask them to do maybe on a daily basis?

Alex Tsuk (34:16)
Thank you. I think in if I really tune in, it's the idea that relationship is relationship. And you can find symptoms in any of your relationships to work on all your relationships. So if you look at what's happening in your romantic life and what's dysfunctional there, working on that or identifying that will help you in being a better parent, being a better facilitator of breath work or anything else. So it's this.

Alex Tsuk (34:43)
Ability to observe your triggers, observe your wounds. Often the romantic relationship is a good place to look at it. In my case, I didn't know how to, I didn't feel safe to receive. So what did I do? I kept my heart closed. I would have switched from one partner to the next, I would keep myself safe. And then it would translate in the way I would showing up in my work, where I would be giving, giving, giving, but then instead of allowing

Alex Tsuk (35:10)
Me to receive, I would be taking instead of receiving. Right. So developing that awareness and the bravery to look at some of the parts of you that are coming in the way of your true expansion. And then observe your relationship with your wounds, you know, money, love, all these, you know, big topics and see what's dysfunctional there. And have the tools, the support to actually observe that. So, you know.

Alex Tsuk (35:38)
I love coherent breathing. You ask for a breathing practice. I love coherent breathing, but it's quite well known. Five seconds in, five seconds out. But my favorite one is the one that I do when you ask me questions. You notice I close my eyes when it's your turn to speak, because I really want to tune in. And for that, I just reconnect to my breath and I take conscious breath. So I close my eyes.

Alex Tsuk (36:05)
And I receive fully what's going on, and I tune in. So I'm both connected to you and connected to myself. And it's from that place that I speak. So that conscious breast that I bring, I don't know, 100, 50, 500 times a day whenever I'm connecting. Am I hungry? Do I want to eat? So whether it's external or internal, I'm having those moments or actually tuning in. Do need to sleep? Do I have time, energy to go to the gym? What's going on there? And and this.

Alex Tsuk (36:35)
This connection to myself allows me to live in my body, you know? And I love and I love that. And I really encourage people to to breathe. And it doesn't require, you know, years in the Himalayas to do pranayama or to John Wimoff or Alex. It's just that simple practice of you just close your eyes, receive one breath, feel into it, and from that breath respond to life, you know?

Patrick Obolgogiani (37:00)
Hmm. I know probably to some extent myself, like if you would have asked me some years ago, maybe 10 years ago, maybe 15, like, hey, what what are you feeling right now? Like my level of interception was quite somehow like surface level. And it's there's some people describe it as almost no feeling below the neck. I didn't have that bad, but there was definitely this like some sense of like blocking something in a way that's

Patrick Obolgogiani (37:29)
Like if you ask, for example, to say your emotional state, it would have been very difficult to say what's happening. I'm curious, like you make it sound like really easy, but for those people who are in that situation where they do what you do, so you close your eyes, but they don't feel much happening. It's just like maybe hunger or some of these more kind of core states of being rather than the actual emotional ones. How do you guys someone to kind of find the layer deeper from where they are?

Alex Tsuk (37:59)
It's actually very simple and common sense. It's get out of your own way. Imagine that your personality is an adaptation to what happened to you. So your behaviors, your what you all you're being, unless you're very conscious, are just protection. They are just armors, masks, protecting you from feeling those scary feelings. Yeah, fear, shame, guilt. So basically getting out of your own way is the way.

Alex Tsuk (38:27)
And Einstein said, madness is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome. So you can look at your patterns, look at your behaviors, and just drop them. So if you're going to the gym all the time, you know, and building muscles and protection, then stop going to the gym. And you know, for someone who's going to the gym and like is completely does fully believe that.

Alex Tsuk (38:54)
This is how you're gonna increase your longevity and da-da-da. And the having a strict diet is good because of this science paper. It's like a crime, right? It's like going against everything that they believe. Yeah. But imagine that your beliefs are just an adaptation. Going to the gym, eating healthy, like sleep go going to bed on time, all these control things are just getting in the way of your own expansion. So

Alex Tsuk (39:23)
Basically, something that I cannot do. Maybe you can do a little bit more, but letting your hair down and change your way. And just observe your way and just change your way. You know, and give yourself a 30-day no gym challenge. You know, you gotta go in defrost mode and start playing and then just explore being in your feminine flow instead. So what does it look like? You open Spotify.

Alex Tsuk (39:50)
And you play random music, not the one that you like, not your dancing playlist, a a song you don't know. Yeah, suggestion recommended by Spotify. And you dance for 15 minutes. And then you don't know how you're gonna dance because you don't know what is the track is gonna come, right? And you give yourself the permission to flow. All of a sudden you're gonna educate yourself to feel again. Right? So could go on forever, but it's really that idea of how today can I get out of my own way? That's why.

Alex Tsuk (40:20)
Sikedlics are forced mindfulness practices. That's what Ice bath is forced mindfulness practices, you know. But there is an alternative way, there is a softer way, there is a kinder way than than doing that. But it requires bravery. Yeah. It requires to do things differently. And for someone, it may be going to the gym every day. And for someone else, not going to the gym every day. But get out of the way.

Patrick Obolgogiani (40:46)
Yeah. It's like a playfulness, sounds like that you introduce into your life. that can open up open up some of the blockers. maybe as we start winding to a close soon, I'm curious because like I'm sure there are certain things in and it could be other in the breath work world or the wellness world and that these myths that are very persistent. what are the ones you'd want to maybe correct people on? Like that they maybe

Patrick Obolgogiani (41:13)
can be irritating you or just like you find can be damaging when people believe those things.

Alex Tsuk (41:21)
I don't. I I actually believe that it's all all love. And I think for instance, you know, there is now a lot of catartic release practices. And I think somehow it gets people to actually access something and at least start feeling. I don't think it's the right way, but I think it opens the door. And right, you know, the more people access breathwork in any way, I think is is great. It's not my approach, but who am I to say that my approach is better than another approach? Right? So

Alex Tsuk (41:49)
I I I'm very open in that way to everyone exploring for themselves. Stay curious. just don't join any religion rather than you know explore different facilitators and and try different things. don't be attached to one model because you are different every day. So some days you want controlled breathing and CO2 tolerance, and another day you want to have more of an over breathing and connecting to your emotional body.

Alex Tsuk (42:19)
There is space for both in in in life. So yeah, just keep exploring, keep having fun, and adopt the blissitude attitude. Like follow your bliss. Your body knows. Your body's expect is craving that. So take the moment to reflect on what feels good in your body and and follow that that. Don't don't go with your mind. Your mind is not your friend. Your mind is mainly trying to anticipate the future based on your past experiences. So it's here to keep you safe, not happy.

Alex Tsuk (42:49)
So learning to not trust your mind, but to trust your your your bodily sensation. And and and yes, you said at the beginning, it's not easy, but practice makes mastery. I really di I start, you know, very, very low on that. And and I I really believe I'm a living proof of what can be done. Not in terms of incredible achievements in any way, but just in the fact that I'm living a human life. I'm connected, I feel, I cry, I laugh.

Alex Tsuk (43:18)
I I'm embracing all my all the emotions. And that is, you know, for me this emotional mastery that I I invite people to explore. And you know, I I always say when you do this work, you might be disappointed because with me, you're not gonna feel better. But you're gonna be better at feeling.

Patrick Obolgogiani (43:41)
It's quite a refrain. Yeah.

Patrick Obolgogiani (43:45)
I don't know if you could come across Joe Hudson's work, but he has this quote that Joy is the patriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come to your house until you've accepted her children to to come as well. I think you have a very similar message in your in your work.

Alex Tsuk (44:06)
I love it. I love it. Beautiful. Who says that?

Patrick Obolgogiani (44:09)
Joe Hudson.

Alex Tsuk (44:11)
Okay, well, amazing. I absolutely love it. And I think for me, I'm actually not so much looking for joy. I think can be daunting. I love this idea of authenticity as as the highest vibration, you know, and it's it's not something that is portrayed with the outside world, it's a sense of alignment with myself, you know, and that's really

Alex Tsuk (44:37)
And the lack of authenticity would be the lowest. So instead of fear and love, you know, looking at it on the spectrum of how how how and you know, we talked about that when we talked about your app. It's like how aligned do I feel? How authentic do I how do how do I show up? You know, and and for me, anxiety would be a sign of of of lack of authenticity. When I facilitate, I facilitate sometimes three weeks in a row, and sometimes I do that ten hours a day and then I teach in the evening.

Alex Tsuk (45:05)
But I am absolutely never tired, right? Because there we really a sense that I'm showing up with you exactly the same way I show up with my children, with my partner, with absolutely everyone in my life. And and and that's the liberation for me. I I'm not playing a role anymore, you know, or if I do it, I I I I name it. Okay, I'm entering into the teacher role. And we're all playing the game where I'm the teacher. But it's it's it's not something that I identify with.

Patrick Obolgogiani (45:34)
Yeah. Definitely. Is there a a particular area that we haven't covered but you think will be worth covering?

Alex Tsuk (45:44)
Hmm. We did a lot in your questions are very sharp, so I really appreciated it a lot. no, I think it gave a taste of what can be done. I really encourage people to just explore the breath because the breath we we hear it over and over, but it's the remote control to your thoughts, to your heart, to your soul, and you don't have a lot of button on that remote control. So spending time

Alex Tsuk (46:13)
Understanding, learning, educating yourself on the breath.

Alex Tsuk (46:18)
What is happening when you breathe through the nose? What is happening when you do an exhale compared to an inhale? What's happening with the right nostril and the left nostril? You know, the what's happening in a breath hold at at the top of the lungs, at the bottom of the lungs. You know, this those are core functions of life. Yet most people they go through life without even asking themselves any of those questions. And they are, you know, kind of keys to appreciating everything else, you know. So it's the key to digestion, it's the key to orgasm, to full body orgasm.

Alex Tsuk (46:47)
to enlightenment is the core of martial art, of meditation, of you know, name dancing, whatever it is that you want to talk about, breath is at the core of it, you know? So spending a bit of time learning and educating ourselves with the breath, with an app like yours, with trainings like mine, and there are so many others around the world, it's a pretty good idea, isn't it?

Patrick Obolgogiani (47:14)
Indeed. Maybe on the point, just to make sure we we kind of give something actionable. What's a resource you would recommend if somebody wants to go deeper into learning more? is there a book or something else you would recommend?

Alex Tsuk (47:30)
Follow your curiosity. We know we live in a world where with AI, it's pretty easy to get answers. The problem is not to find answers, the problem is to find good the good questions. And that's way harder. So explore your follow your bliss. Follow your curiosity. And maybe start with your own pain points. What it is that you want to shift in your life. And each for each their own. Someone has, you know, poor sleep, stress, digestion. Okay.

Alex Tsuk (47:59)
And let's let's go for there and and put in you know one AI software. Okay, this is what's going on, connect that to the breath. And then you will enter a rabbit hole around that. Suggest me the best YouTube playlist to follow, you know, who do I follow? And then you will get suggestion on YouTube who to listen to. You will get amazing books you can explore, you get the summaries of these books, you don't even have to read them anymore.

Alex Tsuk (48:29)
You know, it's if you don't have the joy of reading, it's pretty cool to get access to the knowledge without having to go through the the book itself. I of course love reading, but not because of the knowledge I acquire. I just love what people do with words, you know. Yeah, that's an area of growth for me. I try I'm trying two years to finish my own book. Yeah, so follow you follow your curiosity, I would say. Follow your curiosity. Start with what's restricting you in your life.

Alex Tsuk (48:58)
And know that your breath tells your story. I say the breath is an autobiography. And the way you breathe tells everything about your loves and losses. You're not just flesh and bones. So having an inquiry, that's interesting. My breath, where is my breath? Huh? Where do where do I breathe? What's moving when I breathe? Observing, what's moving? Is it the the belly? Is it is it the chest? None of them? Is my shall breath shallow? Is it deep? Is it more on the right side? On the left side?

Alex Tsuk (49:28)
Huh, well that's interesting. And just there you get to explore functional breathing and all the things you can do to expand your breath. And then you explore pranayama and all the techniques to upregulate, downregulate, and you get it to see wow, I can increase my performance with CO2 tolerance. I can run faster than anyone else. I can lift more weight by breathing less when I train. my god. And you know, so you can really use the breath to optimize your performance.

Alex Tsuk (49:58)
In any way, whether it's in love making or lifting weight or sleeping i or digesting. I mean it's pretty fucking awesome, right? And all this is we just need to put the right inquiry, you know? It's cool so cool.

Patrick Obolgogiani (50:13)
Indeed. Where can people learn more about your work? And maybe let's give them like a one good place and maybe the answer is like follow your curiosity. But if you kinda would recommend where to start, what would you say?

Alex Tsuk (50:28)
my website is the easiest place breathingcoldbally dot com my Instagram breathing underscore cold i link other people's work also on my on my website i have you know blog posts and i try to stay up to date with what's being said out there but yeah i try i try to be on all the all the platform but yeah as as you may know it's gigantic

Alex Tsuk (50:58)
Endeavour. But yeah, I actually love the most is this kind of format where I get to have time to share to connect, where people can actually feel me. That's I I I'm extremely grateful for for your desire to speak with me because I I would love to do more of this kind of work. So if you know people who do podcasts, if you want to give back to me, get me, everyone watching this. I I love to to to join these conversations.

Patrick Obolgogiani (51:24)
Amazing. Well, Alex, I can feel your feel your aliveness through the through the call. So appreciate your sharing your your kind of wisdom and and words and feeling and that he comes comes through. So thank you for this. And for everyone listening, we'll definitely link to those resources to what Alex shared already on the show notes. But with that, I wish you, Alex, and everyone else a wonderful week ahead.

Alex Tsuk (51:49)
And Patrick, before you turn off, I want to thank you for what you're doing, for you know, bring people like Ben and myself and also having the curiosity to explore what people are doing out there. That says a lot about you as a human. So really want to celebrate that. I haven't tried the device yet, but what I've seen in the demos looks awesome. And yeah, just can't wait to see how I integrate that in in my practice. So thank you forever.

Patrick Obolgogiani (52:16)
Thank you, Alex.